Episode 4
Understanding Jealousy in Ethical Non-Monogamy Part 2
What if the relationship you are in is not fundamentally broken, yet lacks transparency?
This episode delves into the complexities of navigating feelings, desires, and questions that often remain unspoken within partnerships. We explore the aftermath of infidelity and the emotional turbulence that ensues, discussing the importance of honesty and communication in fostering genuine connection. Joined by Dr. Joli Hamilton, a distinguished relationship coach, we dissect what constitutes effective relational dynamics, what leads to disarray, and the critical self-awareness required before embarking on a journey of ethical non-monogamy. This conversation is particularly pertinent for those currently dating or contemplating their own relationship structures, as we seek to illuminate the path to authenticity and fulfillment in love.
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Picking Up Where We Left Off
00:42 The Reality of Non-Monogamy
03:15 What People Get Wrong
06:28 Boundaries and Where It Breaks
10:12 Jealousy and Emotional Triggers
14:05 Building Trust and Doing the Work
18:22 The Hard Truth Most People Avoid
22:40 When It Starts to Fall Apart
27:18 What She Would Do Differently
31:55 Advice Before You Try This
🔗 Links & Resources
◎ Instagram: @drjoli_hamilton
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🌐 Website: Dr Joli Hamilton
💡 After everything we talked about… what are you taking from this?
Are you someone who values honesty above everything, or does this feel like too much?
Leave a review or DM me your thoughts. I read every single one.
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Mentioned in this episode:
Menopause Love Lounge Podcast
Menopause Love Lounge is a menopause podcast for women in midlife who feel misunderstood, dismissed, and quietly blamed—and know that what they’re experiencing deserves more than surface-level answers. Menopause isn’t just a hormonal transition. It’s happening inside a culture that profits from women feeling broken, depleted, and “behind”—offering quick fixes that keep us disconnected from our bodies, our relationships, and each other. Six women talk honestly about sex after menopause, intimacy, menopause-related anxiety, emotional burnout, identity shifts, nervous system overload, boundaries, self-trust, changing relationships, and the quiet loneliness that so often defines midlife. Many women reach this season having pulled back from female friendships—not because they don’t value them, but because years of comparison, fear of judgment, and emotional self-protection made closeness feel risky. We name that honestly, and we talk about what it takes to rebuild connection in ways that feel safe, real, and nourishing again. Six hosts matter because no single woman gets to be the answer. This isn’t single-voice authority—it’s real women thinking together, questioning out loud, and letting complexity be honest. This isn’t another podcast telling you what to buy, fix, or optimize. It’s a place to slow down, tell the truth, and remember that what you’re feeling makes sense. Welcome to the lounge. (Hosted by Andrea Knoche, Ozzie Osborne, Dawn Wiggins, Karen Viesta, Junie Moon, and Laurie Gerber.)
Transcript
What if the relationship you are in isn't broken, but it's also not fully honest?
Speaker A:What if there are things you are feeling, wanting or even questioning that you've never actually said out loud?
Speaker A:Because in part one, we talked about what happens when you fall for someone else while you're married.
Speaker A:The moment that everything shifts.
Speaker A:The confusion, the emotional spiral.
Speaker A:But this, this is the part people don't talk about.
Speaker A:What happens after, when you actually try to navigate it, when jealousy shows up, when boundaries get tested, when reality hits.
Speaker A:I'm back with Dr. Julie Hamilton, relationship coach, TEDx speaker and expert in ethical non monogamy.
Speaker A:And in this second part of the conversation, we're getting into the truth.
Speaker A:What actually works, what completely falls apart, and what you need to understand about yourself before you even think about going down this path.
Speaker A:And you know me, always bringing this back to real life.
Speaker A:What this means for you.
Speaker A:If you're dating right now, if you're seeing ENM or poly on apps, or if you've ever questioned your own relationship and didn't quite know what to do.
Speaker A:This is part two.
Speaker A:And this is where it gets really real.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Lounge.
Speaker B:Welcome to the lounge where the stories flow Six women who get the ready Laughter blow oh, we're talking hot flashes and sleepless nights Turning life's changes into our delights Men our pause love lounge when we keep it real Sharing ups and downs and fears we feel Grab a seat with us let's laugh and unwind Together we'll conquer what's on our mind.
Speaker C:One thing we hear constantly from women going through menopause is that sleep suddenly becomes a problem.
Speaker C:You're exhausted all day.
Speaker C:Then the moment your head hits the pillow, your brain decides it's time to replay your entire life and maybe plan next week's grocery list too.
Speaker C:That's why we're so excited about our sponsor, Menno Sleep.
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Speaker C:And what I really appreciate is that it's hormone free, which makes it a great option for women who want sleep support without adding hormones into the mix.
Speaker C:If sleep has become one of your biggest menopause struggles, Menno Sleep might be worth looking into.
Speaker C:You can find it on Amazon and we'll include the link in the show notes.
Speaker B:Menopause Love Lounge.
Speaker D:If you go out on dates with other people, if it wants to move to the next level of being intimate together, do you have to clear that with each other first or we don't do clear?
Speaker E:Like, that kind of works.
Speaker E:But here's.
Speaker E:Here's the thing.
Speaker E:A lot of people do.
Speaker E:A lot of people have, like, the desire to stay on the same page with their partner, to like, to know things ahead of time.
Speaker E:At the beginning, when you're opening, it feels perfectly natural to be like, okay, I need to know everything.
Speaker E:And if I know everything, I'll stay safe.
Speaker E:And if I create a set of rules where I know exactly what's going to happen, I'll stay safe.
Speaker E:But in truth, the thing that keeps me feeling the safest, Andrea, is knowing that every day this man wakes up next to me and says, well, except the days he doesn't.
Speaker E:Every day that he wakes up next to me, me.
Speaker E:He says, I choose you and I choose me, and let's do this together.
Speaker E:And the.
Speaker E:The.
Speaker E:The reality is we're not promised tomorrow.
Speaker E:I don't know whether he'll fall in love with someone else.
Speaker E:I don't know if he'll want a divorce for any number of reasons.
Speaker E:I don't know what.
Speaker E:I don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker E:And I find immense safety in really dealing with the reality that I don't own him.
Speaker E:I don't get to decide whether he loves me tomorrow.
Speaker E:I only get to decide how I show up today.
Speaker D:Oh, wow.
Speaker E:It's quite a revelation.
Speaker E:It's not like.
Speaker E:It's not something that's easy for me to do.
Speaker E:It would be way easier to say, promise me, but he can't promise me.
Speaker E:What he can do is show up, and what I can do is show up.
Speaker E:And we've gone through hard times.
Speaker E:We did an episode on our podcast, um, this past year, we had 18 months of, like, real trouble because our sex life really started to fall apart.
Speaker E:And this is over the course.
Speaker E: It was, like, from: Speaker E:18 Months of, like, it was rough.
Speaker E:And when your sex life is what brought you together originally and, like, falling that profoundly, that was so scary.
Speaker E:And he's also.
Speaker E:He's older than I am, so he's 60 next year.
Speaker D:Oh, that's right.
Speaker D:10 Years.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:You know, he's.
Speaker E:It.
Speaker E:I got scared.
Speaker E:It was scary for me.
Speaker E:But, like, also.
Speaker E:Oh, right.
Speaker E:Our relationship isn't actually based on any of those things.
Speaker E:So we just kept at the conversation of, like, what does it mean that.
Speaker E:That we're struggling right now?
Speaker E:And I could also go.
Speaker E:I can go get these needs met somewhere else, and I can.
Speaker E:And you're okay with that?
Speaker E:And I'm okay with that.
Speaker E:But also, like.
Speaker E:But we still want to relate to each other, so how do we keep doing that?
Speaker E:How do we do that?
Speaker E:It's like to have somebody who just keeps coming back to the puzzle of being in your current relationship as it is not the memory of what it was and not what you hope you provide in the future, but what you actually are making.
Speaker E:This is the safest I've ever felt in any relationship, and that includes everyone else I've dated.
Speaker E:I've had some wonderful partnerships, but it's a rare one where somebody meets you with that level of.
Speaker E:Of commitment to staying in the.
Speaker E:In the mess of it and, like, evolving and letting things change.
Speaker E:Like when he.
Speaker E:So we went through this period of time where it was.
Speaker E:I mean, it was terrifying to me.
Speaker E:I'm like, oh, I am not ready to be done with my sex life.
Speaker E:And you appear to be kind of checked out right now.
Speaker E:And so I proposed like three different times over the course of several months.
Speaker E:I proposed that we transmute our relationship into friendship first, co parenting and co living.
Speaker E:Because we.
Speaker E:Those were the three things that we were still doing really well.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:And he kept coming back to the table and saying, like, yeah, I know, and I know we can have sex with other people.
Speaker E:And that seems to still be working, but I don't want to give up on this.
Speaker E:And he just kept saying, I don't want to give up on this.
Speaker E:So we just.
Speaker D:Which is great.
Speaker E:It was.
Speaker E:Yeah, it's great.
Speaker E:It's also like, yeah.
Speaker E:When you're.
Speaker E:When you can have easy sex with someone else.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:And you're like, not.
Speaker E:Somehow, like, somehow it's just like, not working.
Speaker E:Like, yeah.
Speaker D:And he's saying those things, which you're going, but I'm not getting that from you.
Speaker E:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker E:And then eventually, with enough work, enough effort, enough conversations, enough trial and error and experimentation, we had a breakthrough.
Speaker E:Our sex life is as good, if not better than it ever has been.
Speaker E:I mean, wow.
Speaker E:We had like a full on breakthrough last year and it just worked.
Speaker E:I. I'm shocked.
Speaker E:I'm shocked to find, like, oh, oh, oh.
Speaker E:That was actually able to be recovered.
Speaker E:So I'm so grateful that he stayed in that.
Speaker E:Like, no, let's not give up on this.
Speaker E:Let's stay with it.
Speaker E:I Was mad at the time.
Speaker E:I was so mad.
Speaker E:I was like, it felt.
Speaker E:Because it feels like withholding.
Speaker E:You know, when a partner's like, not.
Speaker E:Like they're not who they were and they're still changing, but it feels like they're taking something away from you.
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker E:Like, it feels like, oh, I lost something.
Speaker E:Exactly.
Speaker E:So this is the puzzle.
Speaker E:Like, we're in this relationship.
Speaker E:I.
Speaker E:And that's the kind of relationship I like to build.
Speaker E:And I've had other partnerships where people, like, they've.
Speaker E:They've done amazing things with me.
Speaker E:We've.
Speaker E:We've grown together, but they've.
Speaker E:So far they've all sort of, like, come.
Speaker E:Been beautiful for a while and then just sort of close.
Speaker E:Just like, come to a closure.
Speaker D:What do you think was.
Speaker D:Like, it just doesn't.
Speaker D:What do you think was the, like, the catalyst to you guys having issues in the.
Speaker D:Was it.
Speaker D:Were you, like, involved with any buy.
Speaker D:Or that you were maybe getting your needs met elsewhere?
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:So in hindsight, we did a bunch of sort of retrospectives, like, looking back, because we both track things quite a lot.
Speaker E:We're trying to pay attention to things.
Speaker E:And a couple things happened.
Speaker E:I was seeing four people, which is a lot.
Speaker E:So that may.
Speaker D:I was gonna say, is there a limit?
Speaker E:I was seeing four people casually.
Speaker E:All.
Speaker E:All of the other relationships were relatively casual.
Speaker E:One of them was really meaningful, but she wasn't as available to me because she had younger children.
Speaker D:Was it all women before you were?
Speaker E:No, no, actually, that was actually three men who I was dating casually and one woman who I was seeing seriously.
Speaker E:But she still had limits on what she could be available for.
Speaker E:But I was seeing all of them over the course of about a year.
Speaker E:Different lengths of connections and frequency of connections.
Speaker E:And that was all working really well.
Speaker E:But I certainly.
Speaker E:My sex life with Ken, like.
Speaker E:Like, the frequency did drop some.
Speaker E:Just like, it just happened, like, oh, I'm.
Speaker E:I'm having sex with other people.
Speaker E:And so some of the frequency dropped off, but not sustainedly.
Speaker E:Not like, oh, we aren't having sex anymore.
Speaker E:And not even a complete drop.
Speaker E:We were talking well, everything was going well.
Speaker E:And then all of those relationships, all of them ended within a few months of each other.
Speaker E:Like, so within a period of, like, three months, all of them ended.
Speaker E:And he and I, looking back now realize that I kind of just relaxed.
Speaker E:Like, that was a lot of output.
Speaker E:It was just a lot.
Speaker E:I was also.
Speaker E:I teach.
Speaker E:I like, I teach.
Speaker E:I'm.
Speaker E:I run the year of opening.
Speaker E:So I'm constantly outputting for Other people about relationships.
Speaker E:So I have a lot of contact with people.
Speaker E:So I just sort of exhaled.
Speaker E:And while that was happening, Ken started having some erection difficulties.
Speaker E:I speak about this openly because Ken does himself.
Speaker E:Totally natural thing that happens for men in their mid-50s, sure was not the end of the world.
Speaker E:But he was struggling with it, and it was getting in his head, and he wasn't dealing with it.
Speaker E:He needed to take that to his own therapist.
Speaker E:And what happened was we wound up in that classic dynamic of I started being the therapist in the room.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:I started problem solving.
Speaker E:And it kills your libido.
Speaker D:It just like, no, it's no good.
Speaker E:So that sort of.
Speaker E:That was playing out, but we didn't see it in the micro moments.
Speaker E:It all felt like, no, we're just doing the best we can.
Speaker E:We're figuring this out.
Speaker E:But I look back and we looked back and we're like, oh.
Speaker E:Oh, these things all playing together.
Speaker E:I exhaled and just kind of relaxed and let things kind of get a little complacent.
Speaker E:He was struggling, and so we just sort of hit this, like.
Speaker E:And neither of us knew what to do to pick it back up.
Speaker E:And it took.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:So it was 18 months of sort of.
Speaker E:The first year was like the downhill part.
Speaker E:And then there were serious conversations about, like, we need to renegotiate this.
Speaker E:This doesn't work.
Speaker E:I'm not willing to live this way.
Speaker E:And yes, I can go get my sexual needs met elsewhere, but we're not need fulfilling machines.
Speaker E:I didn't just need sex.
Speaker E:I wanted to relate to this being in this way.
Speaker E:And I wanted to know if he still had that for me.
Speaker E:And if he didn't, I wanted to be able to grieve it and let it go.
Speaker E:Because in truth, that could be part of our story.
Speaker E:I don't know.
Speaker E:He might get to a point.
Speaker E:I might get to a point where we say, I love our relationship, but I'm done being sexual with you.
Speaker E:Let's reimagine.
Speaker E:That was on the table.
Speaker E:What the.
Speaker E:But when he kept saying, no, I'm not, but I'm not done with it, that's what was like, it's hard.
Speaker E:It's hard to stay in the trenches with your partner.
Speaker E:But we got help.
Speaker E:We got.
Speaker E:He did.
Speaker E:He.
Speaker E:Eventually he found somebody great to work with.
Speaker E:Molina Williams Haas was working with him on she's my absolute favorite choice of person.
Speaker E:If you like power dynamics and you're playing with power in your relationships, which we often are.
Speaker E:Oh, she was so good.
Speaker E:Really good help for him.
Speaker E:I got help from my analyst and like was working on our individual stuff.
Speaker E:That's what made space for us to come back together and reimagine what we could do together.
Speaker E:And really it was, it was breakthrough material.
Speaker E:Cause I'm like, oh, yeah.
Speaker E:Yep, there we go.
Speaker E:New version of our relationship.
Speaker E:New version of us.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:And, and it's not about getting back to anything.
Speaker E:It's about like, yep, whole new thing.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And I love that because I think that often needs to happen.
Speaker D:We need to have some sort of shuffle or something happen within the relationship for us to slow down and really dive in deep and take a look at it.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker D:Analyze it, see where we are going.
Speaker D:I love that you guys have that agreement that you can stay or go.
Speaker D:I've always said that.
Speaker D:I'm like, with marriage, shouldn't there be something like you can come together and say, are we going to stay together or are we going to move apart?
Speaker D:And there's no animosity, there's no big loss of money.
Speaker D:There's just nothing.
Speaker D:You just decide side to split and it's your choice.
Speaker E:It's so, it's so strange to me that we don't have an automatic re upping.
Speaker E:Like it's, it seems strange, but it's wow.
Speaker E:But it wasn't like, I think the thing that people imagine is that if the sex falls apart in a relationship, you either enter a sexless relationship or you get your needs met elsewhere.
Speaker E:And I'm like, yeah, actually it was somewhere in the middle.
Speaker E:Like he still was even going out some during that time.
Speaker E:I don't know how his sex life with them felt.
Speaker E:Like that was between him and them.
Speaker E:But I, I getting to reinvent with someone is, it is to my mind, like that's it.
Speaker E:That's the real, that's the real deal.
Speaker D:Like, that's the real deal.
Speaker E:I, I trust us to be in this mess together.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:And to reinvent.
Speaker E:And so I'll be 50 this summer and he'll turn 60 next year.
Speaker E:And I'm like, great.
Speaker E:We, we just proved to ourselves right before a pivotal time, like when, when we're apt to think about this, we just proved we can reimagine this relationship.
Speaker E:So in some ways I have more faith and trust in us than I ever have because we just showed we don't have to be the same thing.
Speaker E:We could actually do something completely different.
Speaker E:Which especially now is like the kids are grown and like we really are in a different phase.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And they're totally on board.
Speaker D:They've been around you guys long enough to know how your whole thing works.
Speaker E:Yeah, they've been, I mean, the youngest of them.
Speaker E:When we first got together and I came out as polyamorous, my youngest was two and he had three year old twins.
Speaker E:And so.
Speaker E:And the eldest was 10.
Speaker E:And now.
Speaker E:So everybody's between 18 and 26 now.
Speaker D:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker E:One of them actually recorded a podcast episode with us talking about what it was like to be like, raised in a household where like, yeah, we don't do the monogamous thing, we're doing something else.
Speaker E:Which is awesome.
Speaker D:That was said that you were like, oh, what?
Speaker E:Not so much surprising, but the most touching thing was, so they're trans.
Speaker E:Um, and.
Speaker E:And they said like, that our.
Speaker E:Our willingness to be ourselves gave him like the.
Speaker E:The full knowledge that we would be nothing but acceptable of their.
Speaker E:Their whole experience.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:And it's not like, that's not why I set out to be non monogamous, but honestly, that would be reason enough for me to do it.
Speaker E:Like, okay, I was gonna know, hey,.
Speaker D:Yeah, that probably made it a little bit easier in knowing that it was going to be okay because they were so used to so many different facets of relationships and how you can be that they figured you'd be open to it.
Speaker D:That's amazing.
Speaker E:And us constantly saying, like, we know our life looks different from other people and here's.
Speaker E:Here's why.
Speaker E:Without giving them detail.
Speaker E:They didn't need details about our sex lives.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Like kids do.
Speaker E:But they did need to know, like, yeah, yeah, we still date.
Speaker E:We go out.
Speaker E:And we had made the decision not to have any more partners live with us while the kids were underage because things had gotten so messy with that first triad.
Speaker E:I would have otherwise been very open to it.
Speaker E:And I'm open to it again now.
Speaker E:Like, My youngest turned 18 and I was like, oh, okay, it's back on the table, guys.
Speaker E:And they know it.
Speaker E:They know some of them still live at home with us.
Speaker E:And I'm like, it is.
Speaker E:It's on the table.
Speaker E:But would I do that?
Speaker E:Like, I would never move anyone in without a conversation amongst our household.
Speaker E:Just like, I wouldn't.
Speaker E:Like, one of them might want to move in a partner.
Speaker E:And that would be a conversation amongst our household.
Speaker E:So that's the kind of household that we've created is the one where it's all on the table.
Speaker E:You just got to talk about it.
Speaker D:It's amazing.
Speaker D:Is there anyone that either of you are kind of serious about that you're.
Speaker D:You're thinking might be a possibility.
Speaker E:Not right now.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Honestly, we remodeled our house to have a lot of extra space in it three years ago.
Speaker E:And I'm not gonna lie, this was not, not on my mind when we did.
Speaker D:That's right.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker E:I could imagine any number of scenarios, but right now, everybody else I have seen for the past three years has had kids, younger kids, so they're not in a place of thinking about that.
Speaker E:They're all.
Speaker E:So it hasn't really come up because everybody's just been kind of like, yeah, we're just still doing this.
Speaker E:And I mean, that nightmare I described at the outset, like, yeah, I wouldn't do that again.
Speaker E:I wouldn't like, drag anybody through that.
Speaker E:I wouldn't.
Speaker E:I would know better than to make such a tumultuous life because the only thing I regret about that time is the tumult it caused for the kids.
Speaker D:Oh, for sure.
Speaker E:And I had no idea what I was starting, no idea what was happening.
Speaker E:And then you're just like, in it and it's happening and it's not exactly a regret.
Speaker E:It's more like, oh, well, I wouldn't do that again.
Speaker E:So when I date people now and they have young kids, you know, we have a lot of honest conversations about, like, how, how do you present in front of them and like, what is okay to share and how, like, am I, can I meet them?
Speaker E:Can I not?
Speaker E:Like, how does this work?
Speaker E:Everybody's doing it differently and we all have to make the decision that feels right for us.
Speaker E:And so, yeah, it hasn't come up, but who knows?
Speaker E:Maybe.
Speaker E:Oh my gosh.
Speaker D:Thank you for sharing that story and expounding on it from last time.
Speaker D:It's so good.
Speaker D:I'm always like, this is so fascinating.
Speaker E:It is.
Speaker D:But I think to people that aren't used to that lifestyle, right.
Speaker D:Like, it's.
Speaker D:So it's taboo for a lot of people.
Speaker D:You know, I'm so open about hearing about everything that it's, you know, it intrigues me.
Speaker D:So I'm sure some of the listeners are also like, thank you, Andrea, for asking those questions.
Speaker D:Because I'm curious too.
Speaker D:You know, I, I try to think of the questions people are wanting to really, really know.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:So do you think that, you know, just speaking of questions, do you think that a lot of people tend to, maybe not a lot tend to pursue the non monogamy for the wrong reasons?
Speaker D:Like they somehow see it as like a permission to cheat?
Speaker D:Maybe some see it that way.
Speaker D:Do you ever find that?
Speaker E:Okay, so some People use the label of non monogamy when what they want is casual dating.
Speaker E:Some people use the label of non monogamy, but then are not willing to actually negotiate with their partners.
Speaker E:Like a.
Speaker E:It's not entirely uncommon for me to see somebody come in and say, so I'm non monogamous and I need you to, to, to, to get my partner up to like they need to, they need to learn how to be polyamorous because I am.
Speaker E:But then that original partner, sometimes they're like not willing to have clearly explicited, explicit conversations.
Speaker E:They're not willing to deal with the betrayal trauma that's coming up around like, hey, you just changed the rules halfway through the game.
Speaker E:And they're so it's, it's not so much that I think people are using it as an excuse to cheat, as are you using the language that you actually mean.
Speaker E:Like, if you're not available to, to really have ongoing dialogues and create agreements with people and hold yourself accountable for being who you say you're going to be, for aligning your words and actions.
Speaker E:If you're not available for all of that.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:What's going to be the ethical part of this supposed ethical non monogamy.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:I need you to be willing to do that.
Speaker E:And this often requires getting really courageous about understanding.
Speaker E:Okay, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to reimagine what it is to relate to my partners because we need to unpack our couples privilege.
Speaker E:We need to also not assume that we're going to do this both the same way.
Speaker E:So like it's.
Speaker E:There's a lot to unpack.
Speaker E:I mean, that's why my work, like, I don't.
Speaker E:When people come to work with me, you can't work with me for less than a year.
Speaker E:That's my bare minimum.
Speaker D:Great.
Speaker D:Is for your business.
Speaker E:It is.
Speaker E:Well, it was funny.
Speaker E:My original goal in that was not a business decision.
Speaker E:It is good for business.
Speaker E:Of course it is.
Speaker E:It's predictable.
Speaker E:But.
Speaker E:But the bottom line is it takes years to shift yourself from a monogamous paradigm where everything that I've ever known is rooted in the idea that exclusivity is the primary way we create safety in relationships.
Speaker E:To shift that to the paradigm where we say, actually it's connection, attunement, willingness to negotiate, willingness to hold ourselves accountable and to repair as we go.
Speaker E:Those are the things that are going to create safety in relationship making that shift.
Speaker E:That's not a switch we flip.
Speaker E:And that's where like the version of Me who was like, sure, I. I guess since I fell for somebody, let's do non monogamy.
Speaker E:Like, no, babe, you're not.
Speaker E:You have no idea how to do non monogamy.
Speaker E:Doing non monogamy is going to be a complete rewrite of your baseline relational ability.
Speaker E:And by the way, you need that for monogamy too.
Speaker E:You just don't know it.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:All the skills we learn for non monogamy, all of them are fantastic skills for monogamy.
Speaker E:The same isn't true in reverse.
Speaker E:So I. I have plenty of people who come through my work and they're like, we're exploring, we're trying to figure this out.
Speaker E:We don't know if we want to be non monogamous.
Speaker E:Like, that's fine.
Speaker E:Like monogamy.
Speaker E:Really well done.
Speaker E:Conscious monogamy, it's a wonderful choice.
Speaker E:But all of these things, all the stuff I just talked about.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Apply them to your monogamy.
Speaker E:It will be a really beautiful experience.
Speaker D:I love that.
Speaker D:Do you think a lot of people come wanting to try it where you have one partner that is doing it just for the other partner?
Speaker D:I feel like, you know, I feel like that would happen a lot and that's really not a reason to do it.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker E:Well, okay.
Speaker E:Yes and no.
Speaker E:Yes and no.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker E:How many times have you had a partner who really loved a hobby or really loved a certain kind of food and you were.
Speaker E:Or kind of music and like, you were not into it, but you went.
Speaker E:And eventually you're like, actually, I love this.
Speaker E:I really do.
Speaker E:I authentically love it.
Speaker E:So having a partner influence us is not necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker E:However, at the beginning, what you often have is an initiating partner, somebody whose idea this is.
Speaker E:They're inspired, they're excited, and a reluctant partner.
Speaker E:And that reluctant partner may be like, they may feel coerced.
Speaker E:They may feel like I am between a rock and a hard place because I have to decide to either be non monogamous or lose this relationship.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Or they may actually be in a space where they're like, you know what?
Speaker E:I don't know.
Speaker E:Maybe there is something here.
Speaker E:Maybe I could be different.
Speaker E:Maybe this could be something.
Speaker E:And that's why I ask people to take a pace.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Like, often people jump out of the airplane and set fire to the airplane and don't pack their parachute.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:And they just start doing stuff.
Speaker E:And I'm like, okay.
Speaker E:I mean, you can do it the way I did it.
Speaker E:But look, it was a.
Speaker E:It was not a great experience.
Speaker E:I strongly recommend taking an Educational path.
Speaker E:A lot.
Speaker E:Like most of us, what we need is a really strong educational path.
Speaker E:Not just listen to a bunch of podcasts, though.
Speaker E:That's a great place to start, but an actual total overview of, like, great.
Speaker E:How do you guys make agreements?
Speaker E:How do you repair?
Speaker E:What are the ways that the two of you come together and grieve when your relationship changes?
Speaker E:How do we do these things?
Speaker E:There's a million other things.
Speaker E:I mean, I teach people for a whole year, and we barely, like, we can barely cover everything that I want people to explore as they're doing this work.
Speaker E:And so it's not a bad thing to be inspired by your partner.
Speaker E:But if you're doing, doing it and you also don't want to do any of that work, you're not interested in relational exploration.
Speaker E:That's not great.
Speaker E:Because, honestly, you don't even have to want to be open.
Speaker E:Monopoly can work.
Speaker E:Like, some people are like, I just don't want to date.
Speaker E:I have plenty of students who, like, one of them is really into their art or their music, or they're really into hanging out with their friends, and that's where they spend their autonomous time.
Speaker E:And their partner's like, I like to fuck people.
Speaker E:Yeah, that can work.
Speaker E:Yeah, we.
Speaker E:That can work.
Speaker E:But we have to both have a motivation to be in it.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:And that's the tricky spot, because if, if, if it becomes a weapon where I'm only doing this because you're making me do it.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker E:That's.
Speaker E:That.
Speaker E:That sucks.
Speaker E:That's a problem.
Speaker E:Because now we have a blame and shame game going on and it's.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:And so there's stuff to unpack there.
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker D:Would we be surprised at how many people come through your office that are actually interested in this?
Speaker D:Like, I think people would think it's a very small amount.
Speaker D:I feel like it's not.
Speaker D:Not in today's way.
Speaker E:So there are so many people exploring.
Speaker E:So our basic, our, our biggest studies tell US somewhere around 5% of people in the US are doing non monogamy, and somewhere around 20% of people have tried it.
Speaker E:20% Of people is the same number of people as who own cats or play musical instruments.
Speaker E:So, like, this is a lot of people.
Speaker E:It's a lot, right?
Speaker E:It's a lot.
Speaker E:But again, remember how many different kinds of non monogamy there are?
Speaker E:Like, people who are like, we're gonna try having threesomes that would fall under this category.
Speaker E:And people like me who are like, I would like to live with multiple partners and have them all like enjoy each other as part a partnership that all fits under one big umbrella.
Speaker E:So it is a lot more people.
Speaker E:The biggest thing we can do though, is remember all of us, all of us, we've all known somebody who's done this at some point in our life.
Speaker E:Like, you can't get to midlife and not have somebody.
Speaker E:Can you be a safe person for somebody to come out to about doing non monogamy and not blame everything that happens on the non monogamy?
Speaker E:Because you know that dumpster fire I described to you?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:The real problems in there.
Speaker E:We had no idea what we were doing.
Speaker E:Yeah, we had no idea.
Speaker E:So even when I had those feelings, I even honesty is the best policy wasn't enough to carry us through.
Speaker E:And if I had shoved those feelings down and never acted on them, sure.
Speaker E:Would we be married?
Speaker E:Maybe.
Speaker E:Would we.
Speaker E:Would I be happy?
Speaker E:Would I be a psychologist?
Speaker E:Would I be happy?
Speaker E:Would my children be okay?
Speaker E:Because I was in a really angry marriage and I was super sexually repressed.
Speaker E:Like, really, really was.
Speaker E:Like, would I be okay?
Speaker E:I don't think so.
Speaker E:So we have to really sit with the reality that lots of relationships don't go well and there are lots of ways to do them better.
Speaker E:So I think people would be surprised at the number of people who contemplate this and the number of different reasons why people contemplate this.
Speaker E:Like why they even bother trying to figure it out.
Speaker E:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E:So be.
Speaker E:Be a person who's not reactionary about it.
Speaker E:That's like the number one thing I would ask.
Speaker E:People just get curious about it.
Speaker E:Like you said at the opening.
Speaker D:Curious.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:So when you've studied so much about like jealousy and stuff is what do you, like, what do you think people misunderstand most about jealousy in relationships?
Speaker D:Is there anything in particular?
Speaker D:I know you really studied a lot on this.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:I mean, the first thing is of course that jealousy itself doesn't indicate that there's a problem.
Speaker E:A lot of us experience high levels of jealousy with even minimal interaction.
Speaker E:But also, jealousy is neither an all my problem nor an all you problem.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:It's.
Speaker E:We have to actually be in the puzzle of jealousy and get really curious about it.
Speaker E:Because especially in non monogamous relating, we have to learn how to work with jealousy.
Speaker E:It's going to show up.
Speaker E:We can't get blamey and shamey on people who are feeling jealousy.
Speaker E:We need to work with it.
Speaker E:So we do.
Speaker E:But also in our monogamous connections, like, we can't pretend like we're not going to Deal with jealousy.
Speaker E:Monogamy doesn't protect us from jealousy, so we have to relax our grip a little bit and have a conversation about what jealousy is and what it's trying to do, because jealousy is.
Speaker E:It's listed at the root of the vast majority of domestic violence cases.
Speaker E:So we have to be real.
Speaker E:Jealousy can be dangerous, but it's dangerous because we have treated jealousy as an excuse to hurt each other.
Speaker E:And it's like there aren't any.
Speaker E:There aren't any excuses to hurt each other, to be physically violent to each other.
Speaker E:So jealousy needs to be a conversation that we're having amongst all of us.
Speaker E:And I love that work.
Speaker E:My work in jealousy is super important to me.
Speaker E:I will always be doing that work.
Speaker E:Because our national culture just does not include a healthy conversation about jealousy and how we work with it.
Speaker E:We really need that.
Speaker D:Is there certain things that people can do if they're feeling that jealousy come up?
Speaker D:The other day, I was walking with my boyfriend somewhere, and I was kind of ahead of him, and I saw this group of girls coming up, and they were walking up, and I just thought, he's real cute.
Speaker D:And I thought they would.
Speaker D:They were gonna say something.
Speaker D:And then, sure enough, one girl was like, you really handsome, you know, And I felt my.
Speaker D:My little ping of what?
Speaker D:And I thought to myself, what is that?
Speaker D:Where'd that come from?
Speaker D:Andrea?
Speaker D:You know, And I thought, I should look at that as, like, wow, they think he's really cute, and he's with me, so what do I have to worry about, you know?
Speaker D:But I know it's also past triggers of, you know, infidelity that's happened in relationships.
Speaker D:So it's, you know, it's those little things that you're worried, like, is he gonna act on something like that?
Speaker D:Which I don't.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:So, I mean, there's.
Speaker E:There's the clue.
Speaker E:The first thing with jealousy, I. I have.
Speaker E:So people are into this.
Speaker E:You can find all of my jealousy resources on my website.
Speaker E:I have a whole jealousy resource center with all my published literature on it.
Speaker E:I need to go there.
Speaker E:It's such.
Speaker E:It's such a.
Speaker E:It's actually.
Speaker E:It's just such a window into our shadow.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:That ping is information, and it is not just information about one thing.
Speaker E:We've got information in there about your relationship with your boyfriend.
Speaker E:We've got information about what conversations have you had and not had that would help you feel safer.
Speaker E:We need to also look at.
Speaker E:Where were you actually feeling some envy?
Speaker E:Maybe these girls actually got your envy up.
Speaker E:Maybe you were feeling a little like, did they have something that had you thinking that he might look at them as well?
Speaker E:Is that a possibility?
Speaker E:And if your envy comes up at the same time, your jealousy comes up, like, oh, now we've got.
Speaker E:Oh, now we're kind of pulled in both directions.
Speaker E:Also, did you also.
Speaker E:Was that.
Speaker E:Was that Jing.
Speaker E:Was it something that you could also get off on?
Speaker E:Because a lot of us do also have a little bit of, like, oh, yeah, he's.
Speaker E:That.
Speaker E:Yeah, okay, Okay, I could go on.
Speaker E:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker E:So there's so much.
Speaker E:There's so much information packed into a moment of jealousy, and it's tied to everything, because jealousy shows up as young as five months old and just then follows us throughout all of our lives.
Speaker E:So the thing about jealousy is we need to allow ourselves to understand that it is not as simple as just, oh, jealousy means you're insecure.
Speaker E:No, honey, like, great.
Speaker E:That, like, that's a place we need to look.
Speaker E:It might point to that.
Speaker E:But there's a million other things under the surface of jealousy too.
Speaker E:So get super curious about it.
Speaker E:Ask really interesting questions.
Speaker E:I have.
Speaker E:I've.
Speaker E:I've recorded at least six episodes of Playing with Fire on jealousy because there's so many different ways to look.
Speaker E:And I've done, like, 200 podcast episodes on and everywhere because it's such a great, Amazing.
Speaker E:So much good stuff in it.
Speaker E:People try to run from it, but it's actually really, really juicy.
Speaker D:I love that there's information behind it.
Speaker D:Like, that's exciting to think that.
Speaker D:To really stop and go, and I'll do that.
Speaker D:Like, now that I know, if that happens again, I know I'll be like,.
Speaker E:Okay, but what does that mean?
Speaker E:Why did I do that?
Speaker D:You know?
Speaker D:And try to figure that out.
Speaker D:Wow.
Speaker E:What is pinging me here?
Speaker E:Because it comes back to our core attachment material, right?
Speaker E:Like, oh, there's so much.
Speaker E:And.
Speaker E:But you did.
Speaker E:You did a really interesting thing.
Speaker E:That is always a great first question.
Speaker E:Like, as a.
Speaker E:As first aid for jealousy.
Speaker E:When you get the ping, turn your attention back to the connection between you and the partner.
Speaker E:Because jealousy's distraction is.
Speaker E:Now I look at the third.
Speaker E:I look at the person who I perceive as the interrupter.
Speaker E:Jealousy always shows up in a triangle.
Speaker E:There's someone that I'm imagining is going to interfere with my relationship.
Speaker E:I feel a threat, but that's a distraction.
Speaker E:Like, yeah, okay, sure, they exist.
Speaker E:If my connection to my partner is strong and I understand, I have clarity of my agreements.
Speaker E:I know how to talk to them, I can name my jealousy.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:There might be a feeling of threat, but is there an actual threat?
Speaker E:Probably not.
Speaker E:So you're that move to be like, wait, I trust him.
Speaker E:Yeah, we're okay.
Speaker E:That's.
Speaker E:That's.
Speaker E:That's the movement.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:It's what Hera never does.
Speaker E:You know how Hera is the goddess of jealousy?
Speaker E:She is.
Speaker E:She's also, by the way, the goddess of marriage, so.
Speaker D:Really?
Speaker E:That's really true.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Goddess of marriage, goddess of jealousy.
Speaker E:She always turns all of her attention to all of her fuckboy husband's girls.
Speaker E:All of them.
Speaker E:The ones who he also, by the way, like, is raping.
Speaker E:Like, it's not like, all these are consensual relationships.
Speaker E:She never turns her attention to Zeus himself.
Speaker E:Don't make Hera's mistake.
Speaker E:Hera is perfect.
Speaker E:We leave Hera on her pedestal.
Speaker E:She is perfect because she is the goddess of jealousy.
Speaker E:She, like, this is what she does.
Speaker E:She enacts it.
Speaker E:What's the thing she does that we don't want to do?
Speaker E:She doesn't haul Zeus up by the bootstraps and say, what the hell are you doing?
Speaker D:What is this?
Speaker E:She instead turns her attention to punishing the third, which is actually ineffective and just keeps the cycle going forever.
Speaker E:So we're humans.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:We need to deal with our actual relationship.
Speaker D:Oh, so good.
Speaker D:Yeah, I'll definitely think about that.
Speaker D:And I wasn't worried at all because he's excellent.
Speaker D:We're locked in.
Speaker D:We're locked in.
Speaker E:I love it.
Speaker E:I love it.
Speaker D:So, okay, last question.
Speaker D:Because I know a lot of my listeners out there are coming off a divorce or heartbreak and they are dating again.
Speaker D:Should they come across somebody who is engaged with ethical non monogamy practices?
Speaker D:And they will, right?
Speaker E:Yeah, they will.
Speaker E:You can't be on a dating app right now and not have probably half of your feed filled, especially if you're on.
Speaker E:If you're on field.
Speaker E:If you're on any of the sites that have a little bit more openness.
Speaker E:Yes, you're going to.
Speaker D:Is that something they should be putting on their dating apps?
Speaker D:If it's, you know, maybe not field, and maybe it's just bumble or hinge, should they be putting that out there, or is that something they should save for an actual conversation?
Speaker E:So if you are practicing non monogamy, as in you are intentionally building multiple relationships, you want to build multiple relationships.
Speaker E:That's what you want to do?
Speaker E:Yes.
Speaker E:If you want a monogamous relationship and you just want to date, multiply, don't Put E and M. Don't put it on there.
Speaker E:You're not.
Speaker D:It's.
Speaker E:It's not.
Speaker E:And it is.
Speaker E:The biggest thing that bothers me about dating apps right now is everybody's using that label.
Speaker E:What they mean is I am open to dating multiple people.
Speaker E:Yes, we all are.
Speaker E:We're on a dating app.
Speaker D:Not at the same time.
Speaker D:They're not talking about like in, like really getting together and having relationships.
Speaker E:When I'm going on a first date, I do not expect that you are now exclusive to me.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker E:Tell me that.
Speaker E:That we're not high school.
Speaker E:The last time I saw that happening was high school.
Speaker E:We need to let that go.
Speaker E:We need to have a define the relationship conversation.
Speaker E:Even if that's date three.
Speaker E:If for you, you're like, yep, after date three, I want exclusive.
Speaker E:Whatever it is, Whatever that is.
Speaker E:Great that.
Speaker E:But if you just want to date, multiply, you do not need to claim polyamory.
Speaker E:Please don't.
Speaker E:That's.
Speaker E:That's not the thing.
Speaker E:But if you are open to a non monogamous configuration, then consider what are the questions you need to ask the people that you're connecting with?
Speaker E:And I mean like, let's say you find somebody on an app who says that they are married and non monogamous.
Speaker E:Ask them, are you dating independently?
Speaker E:Like, do you make decisions autonomously or do you make decisions as like a unit?
Speaker E:The two of you are going to make decisions and tell me what you're available for.
Speaker E:You could also ask, like, how am I allowed to connect with you and contact you?
Speaker E:Like, are you.
Speaker E:Are you available to actually be relating to me or is this just about sex?
Speaker E:And let people be clear, like it's okay for it to be just about sex.
Speaker E:That the lie around that question is the one thing that damages non monogamous, especially boys.
Speaker E:If any boys are listening to this.
Speaker E:Don't do that.
Speaker E:If you're in it for the sex, just say you're in it for the sex.
Speaker E:It's fine.
Speaker E:There are plenty of us who will.
Speaker E:We are as randy as I'll get out.
Speaker E:Like, let us know that so that we know that lying about that only makes you a reputation, especially amongst the non monogamous folks.
Speaker D:It does.
Speaker E:And it creates community and you're.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And it creates a.
Speaker D:Right off the bat.
Speaker D:Right off the bat.
Speaker E:Exactly.
Speaker E:Exactly.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:And.
Speaker E:And don't be afraid to ask somebody the.
Speaker E:The very first thing when somebody tells you they're non monogamous.
Speaker E:Ask.
Speaker E:Ask them to tell you what it means for them.
Speaker E:Tell me.
Speaker E:Tell me more about how you do it.
Speaker E:Yes, there are a lot of bad answers.
Speaker E:Listen for the red flags.
Speaker E:Like, put your red flag detectors on and listen if they start saying things that make you feel gross.
Speaker E:Trust your gut.
Speaker D:Trust your gut.
Speaker E:There are a lot of people out there in all relationship structure styles doing things that have red flags.
Speaker E:Red flags exist everywhere, so trust your gut.
Speaker D:Oof.
Speaker D:Great info.
Speaker E:Woo.
Speaker D:That was a lot.
Speaker D:That was good, Good stuff we did.
Speaker D:I love it.
Speaker D:And you always get me two episodes out of this, which is great because I don't want to overwhelm them.
Speaker D:You know, it's a lot of.
Speaker E:Yeah, I know it's a lot.
Speaker D:It is.
Speaker E:And my story is so silly.
Speaker D:It's so good.
Speaker E:Sometimes when I'm telling it back now, I'm like, what the fuck, man?
Speaker D:What the fuck?
Speaker D:I know, but it's for, like, people that don't hear this on a daily basis, and there's so many people that I think are so intrigued by it, and they're just afraid to ask or afraid to listen.
Speaker D:And I think that these podcasts give them the opportunity to just listen in without knowing.
Speaker E:And a lot of people don't tell, like, they don't tell the yucky story.
Speaker E:Like, I know, like, amongst my colleagues, amongst my friends, amongst my.
Speaker E:My community, like, we want to tell the happy stories.
Speaker E:The happy stories exist, but we need to also acknowledge that, like, there's a lot of stuff that goes down and we need to bounce back from it and learn how to do better.
Speaker E:And.
Speaker E:Yeah, I just have no interest in hiding the dirty laundry.
Speaker D:I hear you.
Speaker E:It's there.
Speaker D:All right, before we wrap up, I want to play a game that I'm introducing this season.
Speaker D:I'm season eight of the podcast, and.
Speaker D:And it's called Relationship Reality Check.
Speaker D:Okay, so I'm going to throw out some relationship scenarios, and then you're going to tell me if it's healthy, like something that actually supports a strong relationship.
Speaker D:If it's messy, it's not necessarily wrong, but it causes some issues, some drama, confusion, or if it's a total deal breaker, something that for many people would just be a total red flag.
Speaker D:Okay, so healthy, messy, deal breaker.
Speaker D:Okay, number one, looking through your partner's phone when they're not around, is that healthy, messy, or deal breaker?
Speaker E:Deal breaker.
Speaker E:Deal breaker.
Speaker E:And here's the thing.
Speaker E:We need to get to the root of it, because the reason why you're doing that matters a lot.
Speaker E:It matters so much.
Speaker E:I understand why it happens, but as an ongoing way to, like, monitor Partners, it's.
Speaker E:It's not going to actually get you what you want.
Speaker E:So we need to deal with the underlying circumstances that are leading you in that direction.
Speaker E:There are better ways to have open communication.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And I feel like if, if you're doing it, there's already an issue.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:If you're finding the need to do that.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:So yeah, there's an issue.
Speaker E:But sometimes the issue is some people are super hyper vigilant, so they may need some independent work on.
Speaker E:Like they're really struggling with hyper vigilance, inventing scenarios in their mind.
Speaker E:And some people have betrayal trauma that is never dealt with.
Speaker E:And now their partner has just like over and over again shown them that the only way they can get information is by subterfuge.
Speaker E:So these are unhealthy dynamics.
Speaker E:We need therapist, office, bare minimum.
Speaker D:Bare minimum.
Speaker D:Yuck.
Speaker D:Yuck.
Speaker D:And you're almost always going to find something.
Speaker E:Right?
Speaker D:There's going to be something in there.
Speaker E:You know what?
Speaker E:Even if.
Speaker E:But even if you find nothing, they're going to find out that you looked eventually.
Speaker E:And now we have a different.
Speaker E:Now we have.
Speaker E:Now we have another problem.
Speaker D:Yep.
Speaker E:Number two also, do you have a communication about that?
Speaker E:Like, do they know whether.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker E:What?
Speaker D:What do they know how?
Speaker D:Like it?
Speaker D:I like it.
Speaker D:Number two, staying friends with an ex.
Speaker D:Healthy, messy, deal breaker.
Speaker E:Healthy.
Speaker E:With the caveat that you've done your relational work and you know how to actually hold yourself to your actual relationship agreements.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Like, do you know what your current relationship agreements are?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:If you do and you can honestly stay with it, great.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:I'm one.
Speaker D:I always do that.
Speaker D:I don't know why.
Speaker D:I just, I have a lot of ex friends and it works for me, not for everyone else all the time.
Speaker D:Number three, opening a relationship to save a struggling marriage.
Speaker E:Super messy.
Speaker E:It will be super messy.
Speaker E:We will not.
Speaker D:Beginning of the episode.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:I will not say, though, that it's a deal breaker because it could be the inspiration for getting the real education and learning that you need together.
Speaker E:But it's going to be messy.
Speaker D:Yeah, I would have said messy.
Speaker D:Not defining the relationship after six months of dating.
Speaker D:Healthy relationship.
Speaker D:Deal breaker.
Speaker E:That's a deal breaker for me.
Speaker E:Healthy, messy.
Speaker E:That's a deal breaker for me.
Speaker E:Because it usually is pointing me in the direction like I'm being breadcrumbed into thinking this is a relationship when it's a situationship.
Speaker E:Situationships are inherently ambivalent.
Speaker E:This gets us into betrayal.
Speaker E:If that is you go read Betrayal and Non Monogamy by Eve Rickert immediately.
Speaker E:Do not pass go even if you're not non monogamous.
Speaker E:Best book on betrayal.
Speaker E:It's been out recently.
Speaker E:So good.
Speaker E:Oof.
Speaker D:Ooh, I like that one.
Speaker D:I just talked yesterday about the breadcrumbing and situationship.
Speaker D:Feeling jealous when your partner dates someone else.
Speaker E:Totally healthy.
Speaker E:It's what you do with it that matters.
Speaker E:Yeah, I like it.
Speaker D:Putting ethically non monogamous on your dating profile.
Speaker D:I forgot I had that question.
Speaker D:I was on a train.
Speaker D:Thought healthy.
Speaker E:If you know what the hell that means, if you actually know what it means, great.
Speaker E:But if you don't and you're just dating, multiply.
Speaker E:Take it off.
Speaker E:Just take it off.
Speaker E:Take it off.
Speaker E:Just say that you're dating multiple people.
Speaker E:It's fine.
Speaker D:And if it's a deal breaker for you that somebody is, be honest about that.
Speaker D:Like why?
Speaker D:Even if you're not willing.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:While we're at it, read people's profiles.
Speaker E:Mine says I'm married.
Speaker E:If that's a problem for you afterwards, I know you didn't read the first line.
Speaker E:Read my profile.
Speaker D:Checking dating apps while casually dating.
Speaker E:It's as healthy as healthy can be.
Speaker E:You're casually dating.
Speaker E:You're gonna be dating.
Speaker E:You're dating.
Speaker E:I mean, like I also go to the grocery store while I'm casually dating.
Speaker D:Healthy.
Speaker D:I do think it's tricky for people that don't quite understand understand dating and casually dating because you can be dating, like you said, multiple people and you're trying to find the person that rises to the top that you want to spend your life with.
Speaker D:It's like, so for some people and it's.
Speaker E:We all have such a different understanding of like what?
Speaker E:Like when we need to define the relationship.
Speaker E:I really don't think there's a wrong time.
Speaker E:You might be a person who wants to do that.
Speaker E:Like in those first three dates, you might wait a couple months, but like expecting exclusivity the second you go on one date.
Speaker D:That's a red flag.
Speaker D:That's a red flag.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:I'm confused.
Speaker E:Like how?
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:I don't know.
Speaker D:Wanting emotional connection with one partner and sexual freedom with others.
Speaker D:This is like a no brainer.
Speaker E:Healthy can be.
Speaker E:If, if.
Speaker E:And here's the thing though.
Speaker E:You said wanting it.
Speaker E:Yeah, sure, you can want anything.
Speaker E:Whether you act on that and whether you do that from a place of actually getting in, digging and understanding what it is that this will require of you, that's different.
Speaker E:But also you, you can want anything.
Speaker E:Lots of people want stuff that don't do It.
Speaker D:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker D:Last one.
Speaker D:Sharing passwords with your partner.
Speaker D:Healthy, messy, healthy.
Speaker E:And there needs to be a conversation about what they're used for.
Speaker E:And also still places where you can have privacy.
Speaker E:But like, sharing passwords for some reasons is like.
Speaker E:I mean, I share my Disney password with like4people right now.
Speaker E:I don't know.
Speaker E:Come on.
Speaker D:I know.
Speaker E:I. I know what you mean, what you're getting at.
Speaker E:Like, understand what that shared password is for.
Speaker E:If it is for control so you can feel safe.
Speaker E:Because you actually don't feel safe with this person, then admit that you don't feel safe with them.
Speaker E:That's different than having it.
Speaker E:Like, I have passwords for all sorts of things to my partners for legal reasons.
Speaker E:Like, Like, I don't.
Speaker E:I don't look at them.
Speaker E:But we also have a lot of explicit conversation about under what circumstance those would ever be used.
Speaker E:Yeah, people die.
Speaker E:Like communication.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker E:I want to.
Speaker E:I don't want to be locked down my bank.
Speaker E:I don't like.
Speaker D:Exactly.
Speaker D:Exactly.
Speaker D:Well, thank you for playing relationship Reality Check with me.
Speaker D:That was fun.
Speaker D:Those were good and very good answers.
Speaker D:So once again, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker D:I love having you.
Speaker D:You one of my favorite guests ever have.
Speaker D:Because you just.
Speaker D:You go at it, girl, and you just tell it like it is.
Speaker D:And I love.
Speaker E:I will say anything, Andrea.
Speaker E:I'll say anything.
Speaker E:Thanks for having me.
Speaker E:It's always fun.
Speaker E:Always fun.
Speaker D:Always fun.
Speaker D:Tell everybody where they can find you.
Speaker D:Jolie.
Speaker E:Just you can find me@joliehamilton.com and if you're looking for me on social Media, I'm at Dr. D R J O L. I underscore Hamilton on all the platforms.
Speaker D:Perfect.
Speaker E:And your podcast is Playing with Fire, available everywhere.
Speaker E:I think we've hit about.
Speaker E:We're almost 250 episodes now, so there's plenty to listen to.
Speaker D:Amazing.
Speaker D:Amazing.
Speaker D:I love it.
Speaker E:Ken and I just going at it, saying all the things.
Speaker D:That's so good.
Speaker D:Yeah, you guys, you're gonna hear with the man she's married to now.
Speaker D:So it's really good.
Speaker E:If you're thinking that this sounds like I am treating him terribly.
Speaker E:I want you to go listen to him.
Speaker E:Listen to the horse's mouth.
Speaker E:Just like listen to him.
Speaker E:It's honestly, he gets more love on the podcast than anything.
Speaker E:I do about 75 of the talking on the podcast.
Speaker E:Yeah, it's.
Speaker E:I plan it.
Speaker E:I do the episode plans and everything.
Speaker E:But he like, people love that always.
Speaker D:They love in there and take all the.
Speaker E:He's like.
Speaker E:But he's showing up.
Speaker E:He's showing up to the work.
Speaker E:Calls himself in.
Speaker E:What more can we ask?
Speaker E:That's how date a man.
Speaker D:That's what we want, a man.
Speaker D:I love it.
Speaker D:All right, you guys, thank you for joining this week.
Speaker D:You can find me on any major streaming platform.
Speaker D:I'm at from.misses.the number two miss on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker D:And you can email me at andrea@from misses number two ms.com Gosh, trying to keep track of all that stuff is great.
Speaker D:All right, you guys, we'll see you next week.
Speaker D:Thanks for joining.
Speaker D:Bye.
Speaker D:Bye.
