Episode 26
How to Stop People Pleasing & Set Boundaries Without Guilt
Are you struggling with people pleasing in dating and relationships or saying yes when you really want to say no?
In this episode of From Mrs. to Ms., Andrea sits down with award winning leadership coach and master hypnotherapist Amy Green Smith to talk about how to stop people pleasing, set healthy boundaries, say no without guilt, and stop abandoning your own needs to keep other people happy.
Andrea gets personal about the ways people pleasing has shown up in her own dating life, including a date she knew she wanted to cancel, her tendency to accommodate other people's preferences, and even a recent moment when she realized she was looking to someone else for approval.
Amy explains how to recognize when compromise has crossed into self abandonment, why someone's reaction to your boundaries can tell you a lot about the relationship, and how to stop overexplaining every time you say no.
You'll also learn Amy's simple three step framework for having difficult conversations, how to practice speaking up in low stakes situations, and why taking inventory of what you complain about can reveal exactly where you may need stronger boundaries.
Then Andrea puts Amy through “Compromise or People Pleasing?” with real dating scenarios including changing plans for someone you're dating, agreeing to keep things casual when you really want commitment, and staying quiet about something that hurt you because everything else is going so well.
Amy leaves us with one powerful reminder:
“Do not allow your silence to make you a liar.”
If you've ever worried that setting a boundary will make you difficult, selfish, or unlovable, this conversation is for you.
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Meet Amy Green Smith
02:07 Why We Say Yes When We Want to Say No
07:02 What People Pleasing Really Looks Like
12:03 Healthy Compromise vs. Self Abandonment
20:03 How to Recognize People Pleasing
22:07 How to Say No Without Feeling Guilty
25:33 Why We Overexplain Our Boundaries
28:41 Can You Take Back a Yes?
31:16 Andrea Gets Vulnerable About Seeking Approval
37:06 The Three Step Boundary Recipe
40:12 When Someone Pushes Back on Your Boundary
47:18 How to Rebuild Trust in Yourself
48:30 The Complaint Inventory
50:27 Game: Compromise or People Pleasing?
58:50 Do Not Let Your Silence Make You a Liar
💡 I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU:
This week, pay attention to the moments when you’re about to say yes when you really want to say no. Before you answer, ask yourself: Am I choosing this because I genuinely want to, or because I’m afraid of disappointing someone? Start with one small moment and choose yourself.
If you’re enjoying From Mrs. to Ms., take a second to rate and review the podcast. It’s one of the easiest ways to help more women find these conversations, and it truly helps the show grow. And if this episode made you think of someone who needs to hear it, send it their way.
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Stay connected with Amy Green Smith
▶ YouTube: @heyamygreensmith
◎ Instagram:@heyamygreensmith
🌐 Website: Amy Green Smith
The Boundaries Over Burnout Private Podcast Series is a free, six-episode mini-course that takes you from "I know I should set better boundaries" to actually having the tools, the framework, and the exact words to speak up without guilt. Evidence-based with specific scripts, it's delivered straight to your podcast app. Grab it here: amygreensmith.com/free.
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Transcript
Welcome back to from Mrs. to Miz. I'm very excited today because I have a really special guest with me today. And I've been seeing a lot of her lately, not gonna lie, because she was also on my other podcast, Menopause Love Lounge. So if you love her here, tune in over there because we had a really great, great conversation. But let me say hi first. Amy Greensmith. Hi, How are you?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I'm so well. I'm thrilled to be back with you and I'm sure there's lots of good convo on the horizon.
Andrea Knoche (:Yes, yes, yes. I always love having you. You were on my show. we were just talking about it a couple of years ago. I don't recall exactly what episode, but people can go back and listen to that one. And we were talking about kind of how things have progressed so much over the the last few years in dating and relationships and everything. So I think even though we might repeat something, this is gonna be just a fully fabulous conversation because I think it's just gonna take us in a different route.
but let me introduce you real quick. So just so the audience knows, Amy is an award-winning leadership coach. She is a master hypnotherapist, and she has recovered corporate overachievers who help women build self-worth, establish boundaries, and speak up for themselves without drowning in guilt. She's the creator of The Worthy, which is method and former host of the bold face truth podcast, which is amazing. And today we are gonna talk about.
People pleasing, setting boundaries within dating and relationships, how to actually say no without feeling guilty, or finding out, you know, why you are saying yes so much instead of honoring your true self and just saying what you really feel. I love this conversation because I'm in the throes of this all the time. I overextend
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yes.
Andrea Knoche (:myself, right? And I'm sure that's what people say to you all the time. Like they
are doing so much and our first reaction is just to be like, yes, yes, I can do that. And then it's almost harder to go back after and say, I'm sorry, I really can't. I shouldn't have said yes to that, rather than have just said no in the first place, right?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:That's right. That's right. And I think, yeah, I was listening to one of your episodes where you regale the tale of first jumping back in to the dating world after your divorce
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:and how there the the eat a bag of dicks, gentlemen. Those of you who
Andrea Knoche (:I love it.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:are who are diehards of the show, you'll know exactly who we're talking about.
but how
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:there was a lot of
internal knowing for you that you wanted to say no. You wanted to cancel. And there was this pull to reschedule and I have to be available. I have to follow through. And so I think those
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:are very real world experiences that we have, whether it's in dating or in your work world or with your family, where we make up this falsity that I have to say yes. And you don't, you really don't.
Andrea Knoche (:You don't. Yeah. So true. And thank you for bringing up that episode. That is actually such a fun story to tell. and and really it kind of shows like how that even went, even though I was being so accommodating and so giving. And I'm like, I really didn't want to go on the date, but I'm still like, yes, yes, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go. And even accommodating for the reschedule. And then as soon as I did, it turned out to be all of these negative things.
That he said to me. And I remember being like, whoa, you know, I thought I was like, like I said, just being so accommodating and and giving exactly what he wanted. Yet it still didn't work out in my favor. I mean, it did because I didn't have to go on the date. But you know, I still got this negative feedback from him. And so looking back on that now, you know, and maybe I'll ask you that, like, how could that have gone differently for me? So when I just to recap a little bit, I remember that I
Had met him online. We agreed, you know, we were gonna go out. And then I asked for like an updated picture of him, just, you know, to send over, I think, on the phone. And he did. And he looked nothing like he did online. And I was like, whoa, this is not who I agreed to go out with. Should I have said right there? Like, how could I have handled that differently instead of just going along with it knowing I was no longer interested? Because it just wasn't, you know, physically a match for me. What could I have done?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Right. Well,
I think you can actually say that because what
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:we have to get really clear about is you're not the one who fucked up. He's the one who is
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:selling false goods. He's the one masquerading like a Prada bag when it's really about to completely fall apart because it's not authentic. Right. So I think
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I think we also have to recognize that if we are
Proud of how we deliver our no or how we advocate for ourselves in our delivery. The other person's response to that tells us everything we need to know about them. So when you did eventually say, I'm not able to make it, even though it was for a viable reason, his response of starting off accommodating and then completely devolving and going off the rails.
Tells
us everything we need to know about the other person. So I want everybody to be very clear that just because somebody responds to your no really poorly, that doesn't mean you did something wrong. That oftentimes is emblematic of who they are and how they're showing up. So to answer your
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:question, what could you have said? I would have called out the discrepancy between who you thought you matched with and then the picture that he sent over. And
your own words to me was if physically it's not a match. So
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you can say that. You can say, hey, listen, I'll be really candid with you. The image you just sent over to me is night and day from who I thought I matched with. For that reason, because of that inauthenticity, because of starting off with a lie, I am going to, I'm gonna politely decline and I wish you well.
Andrea Knoche (:It's so good to hear that. And I and I'm sure a lot of the listeners are cringing right now, going, my God, I could never, I could never say that, right? But when I go back and look at the the transgression of the whole incident, how it went, I could have saved a lot of time and effort in there, right? Yeah, if I had just
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:That's right. Yes.
Andrea Knoche (:kind of stepped up. And and it is kind of a nerve-wracking thing. And that's what I kind of want to ask you is.
For anyone who may not realize that they're actually doing it, that they're doing all of this people pleasing and just giving, giving, giving, can you kind of give us an idea of what that actually looks like in dating? Just so people can go, that's me. Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yes, absolutely.
Well, first of all, there's a lot of nuance to people pleasing, which I think is very relevant to the dating world, and we can kind of dig into that. But what we are talking about is essentially being inauthentic, saying falsehoods, saying yes to things that you wish you would have said no to, accommodating somebody else at some kind of cost to you.
So
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I'm not talking about unabashed truth, being like, your nose is kind of big, or you know, just volunteering things that might be true
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to you that are actually causing harm and don't have anything to do with whether or not you're going out with them or not. What I'm talking about is when the yes is actually costing you something like your own time off, being able to match with somebody else and start engaging with another person, having time.
To invest in your own health and well-being, or even just having the mental freedom that comes with making powerful decisions for yourself. So, in that anecdote, I think you brilliantly represented how much push and pull and rumination and perseveration around am I doing the right thing? Am I hurting that person? I would argue that that mental vortex is more uncomfortable.
Than actually learning how to say no from the get-go. So you have to recognize
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:does this yes come with my own suffering? And if that's
the
case, then it's probably people pleasing. Now,
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:an important caveat here though, and I know you understand this: people pleasing is an iteration of our fawn response. So if we are in fear.
We typically will defend ourselves through fighting, fleeing, freezing, or fawning. Fawning is placating an aggressor or some type of danger, right? So
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:the primitive example of that would be if I was about to be attacked by a mountain lion, being like, here, kitty, kitty, kitty, here's some food. Go over there. We're not fighting, we're not running away, we're not freezing. We're placating. We're we're essentially people pleasing.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:But
there's a reason why we employ that in the face of fear. And that is sometimes we are actually in danger. So if
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you are ever in a situation where you think somebody might spike your drink, they might cause you physical harm, they you met them out at a club and they are seeming to be a little bit more aggressive, that's probably not the tool to use.
Of massive assertion and telling them exactly what you want and being like, no, no means no. It might be a better tool when we are talking
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:about personal safety only to employ people pleasing to actually stay safe.
That being said, I would also argue that more often than not, we are people pleasing.
Out of a fear of what somebody else thinks of us or from outsourcing our self-worth more so than self-preservation.
Andrea Knoche (:Hmm, wow. Yeah, that's so well said and and
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Do you have you been in that where you're like,
I'm curious if you've been in a similar situation where you've actually
been worried about your well being?
Andrea Knoche (:for my safety? yes, actually I have. because I did date somebody who turned out to be a stalker of some some point.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Uh-huh.
Andrea Knoche (:He started really looking into my stuff. We were no longer together. I had been at his place at one point before, gone into my email, didn't log out of my email. So he was still going into my email and tracking where I was and everything. And so that was very nerve-wracking. And I remember him showing up at my place and
you know, wanting me just to come out and talk to him. And I didn't want to, but that was a good example of where I felt like I need to do this. And I need to say, yes, I'm going to come out and talk to you and just kind of smooth over the situation. And I'm sure I was very like tried to be very calm about it. And of course, yeah. And so nice
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Mm-hmm.
Andrea Knoche (:like that, even though I was feeling terrified inside or knowing this was not a safe situation. But
yeah,
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:That's right.
Andrea Knoche (:I totally did that. So I can see how that
makes sense to do that. And and yeah, I'm sure a lot of people have actually done that. But is there a way to discern between when you're like when you're being thoughtful and you're being flexible in a relationship, as opposed to like abandoning your own needs to keep someone else interested? Where is where's that fine line come in? Does that make sense?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Can you give me an example?
Andrea Knoche (:well I think that
Sometimes, you know, a a partner may want to you know, go it could be as simple as wanting to go to dinner, right? To a a certain restaurant. this is a new relationship. He wants to do multiple different things than I wanted to do. But I'm gonna go ahead and be like, Well, you know, I want to be thoughtful and sweet and I want to appear that I'm open to do anything. I'm so flexible with my schedule and everything. But inside, I know.
I don't eat that kind of food. I don't like that kind of place. You know, I would never be in a bar like that, but I'm doing it to keep him interested in me. How do we discern that one?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Well,
this is a great one because if I were to ask anybody out there who is dating and ask them,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:what is the type of individual that you want to attract? Most likely they're not gonna say a bunch of liars, people who shape shift and tell me
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:a bunch of falsehoods just to placate me. Most people are gonna say, I want somebody authentic, somebody who's transparent,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:somebody who's honest. So
I think the best way to go about that is to use vulnerability and say that my instinct right now is to say sure so that I can appear so amenable. But if I'm being
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:really honest, I really don't like that type of food. And I
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:assume that you would rather me be honest than just tell you what you want to hear.
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:And so
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you're using your real experience, you're you're being vulnerable, saying like, hey, I think the sexy answer would be like, hey, yeah, I'm down for whatever. But if I'm really honest about who I am, I don't like that bar or I I that's not my style of food. What would you think about something like this and throwing out an alternative so that you're not just constantly shutting somebody's idea down?
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. But is it okay to do it once once in a while to be accommodating and you're early on and you're like, Yeah, I'm just gonna go with the flow, or are you setting the precedence right there? Like he's like, she'll she's agreeable to everything. She'll go do anything with me.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I'll
give you an example from my personal life. I personally feel like getting it out there to begin, to begin with, really tells that person who they are dealing with. Like I'm not with somebody who is going to sugarcoat everything. But I think it really comes down to how big are the stakes? Like how big of a deal do you is it that you can't eat anything there or that you are highly triggered at that location?
How big of a deal is the concession? That that definitely plays into it. So I was
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:fostering a friendship with a pal of mine many years ago in one of our very first friendship dates. We started off at one location and she said, Hey, she's a musician. She said, Hey, you know, some of my friends are playing down the street. Would you want to go see them?
you know, n in in ten, fifteen minutes after we're done here. And at that time I was like, sure, actually that sounds fun. And then whilst we were there, I told her, I want you to know that I am probably the least spontaneous person you will ever meet. So I will likely never say yes to stuff like this again. So I just want you to know I'm not a go with the flow typically. I need planning. I need organization.
You can invite me last minute all you want, but just know I will almost always say no. I am a planner. I don't like last minute changes. I don't I have anxiety around that. And she was like, cool,
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:good to know. Thank you for being really clear. and so I have found that the more clear and the more expressive you are about how you operate and not make apologies for it.
The more people
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:are like, my God, thank you. In fact, my partner of nearly 30 years tells me
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:one of the reasons why he fell in love with me was because there was no games. I was like, we we pulled in after our first date, we pull into the driveway at my parents' house. this was in
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:1997, and and we pull in and I was like, so how do you feel like that went? You know, like I wanted to debrief. I'm like, how do you feel about this?
And because I don't want to fucking play games. We are too old for this. Espe you know, now.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah, yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I mean, then I was 18, but I just didn't want to waste my time. I
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:didn't, I I I am a straight shooter and that is the type of person I want to attract. And and
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I'll tell you what though, as our relationship evolved, there were things from past relationships that he had to unlearn. Like when I would say, What do you think about this outfit? Does this look good on me?
He felt like he always had to
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:say yes because every other scenario, it was a fucking trap. And so I had to
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:say, when I am asking you this, I'm not, I don't have a hidden agenda. I legitimately want to know, do you think this color doesn't look great? Is this unflattering? And it had to be multiple times where he was like, it's not my favorite. I'm like, cool, thank you. Got it. I'm gonna change. I'm gonna do where he was like, cool, it's not a trap. So all of that to
say.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:You will streamline your experience. You won't have to go back and say, Hey, guess what? I don't actually like Thai food. But you
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:because I never said anything, now it's always your first suggestion. Because all people,
Andrea Knoche (:I know.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:all people can do is interpret what you have or haven't said. So if you haven't said anything, but you said, Absolutely, yeah, let's go get Thai, they might now start thinking.
my God, Andrea's favorite is Thai. Let's go to the Thai
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:restaurant she loves. So it's on you to not sell a false bill of
Andrea Knoche (:What's happened?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:food. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah, that's definitely happened because I am very particular with my food and I do tend to give in a lot. But also to what you said, I can always find something, right? Like it's not like there's nothing
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yeah.
Andrea Knoche (:there. Maybe some restaurants, maybe like an Indian restaurant or something. There'd be nothing that I would want.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yeah.
Andrea Knoche (:But you know, I tend to I tend to go, yeah, that's fine. I can always find something. Like that's how I kind of say it, instead of letting them know.
That is really not something I like. Like I'm not a big Mexican food eater. That's probably my one of my least favorite. And instead of saying it, I tend to go, well, I'm sure I could find I do like quesadillas or, you know, fajitas or something. I'll find something. but then you're so right because then they're like, well, she'll she'll find something so we can go do that again. Hmm, real tricky.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:You can also say, hey,
I really appreciate you coming up with ideas. I'll be honest, I don't do the best with Indian food. It's not totally my favorite. Or I
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:don't do the best with Mexican. I can do quesadillas. What do you think if we do that this time and then we alternate who picks where? Right. Where you're you're still accommodating, but you're also being really clear
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:that it's not your favorite. Right? So there can be happy
Andrea Knoche (:Mm, I love that. Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:mediums there.
Andrea Knoche (:Yes. I absolutely love that. So do you think there are some like early warning signs that for people that are like going, my gosh, do I do this? Is this me? That you are kind of performing and you know, you're you're not showing up for yourself. You're showing up for them, right? Are there some early warning signs that the listeners can go, okay, yep, I'm totally doing that. Is there anything you're you have
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yes, if
Andrea Knoche (:seen? Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:if everything that you tell your best girlfriend is different than what that person heard on the date,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you're probably people pleasing. So given this same anecdote,
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:let's say you go to your bestie and you say, Ugh, he wanted to do Indian and you know I fucking hate Indian. Like and and you
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:say that to her.
But
he's cute, but he does this, but gosh, it really bothered me how he kept interrupting the server. He was really rude to the server. And you're telling them all these red flags, all these things that were a problem. But homeboy over here has no clue. He thinks you love Indian. He thinks you have no problem witnessing him being an asshat to the waiter, to the server, then we've got a discrepancy
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:here. So
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:That's a really great litmus test. How did I regale
Andrea Knoche (:Very good.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:this tale to my bestie versus what would that person I went on the date with think the truth was?
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. that's good. That's good. I don't know
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yeah.
Andrea Knoche (:why it is so difficult to to do these things. And I have gotten way better than I did probably two years ago when we were we were chatting. I mean, I've really found my voice, you know, over the years. And sometimes I think that happens, right? Like it takes time, it takes practice. You may not feel comfortable doing it the first time, but once you do it once and you, you know, continue.
To honor yourself and do that as the process goes on, I think that you start to learn, like, hey, it, it does behoove me to actually speak up and s and say that, right? And I would have to assume it's it doesn't have to be all the time. Like you don't have to, like you said, when you were asking about how I look in this outfit, you know, we don't have to be one way or the other to where we're like we're always saying, no, it looks great, it looks great, it looks great, or we're saying, ooh, that like.
They wanna hear the truth, so I'm gonna give that really hard truth. There's more of a happy medium there, I'm I'm thinking, right.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Well,
I think what we're talking about is saying no with malice and saying no with kindness. So
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:if if I'm saying if we're using that example of do you think I look good in this outfit, saying,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:no, you look fat as a whale and you look disgusting or like no, it's awful, right? That's saying
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:that's saying no kind of with some malice. With kindness, which is something
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:that my my partner and I say quite frequently is it's not my favorite. And that's our code.
Of I don't
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:really like it, or it's not my favorite, or I think you have
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:some better options. So I'm saying no, but I'm not, I'm saying it with kindness. And so that's sort of the nuance that I think is available. and one thing I wanted
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to mention about what you said about how difficult this is. I
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I really want to underline that that this is not an individual problem. This is not just I don't know how to speak up for myself. This is
How we are programmed as humans and then how we are socialized as women. So if if you remember me talking about our primitive defense mechanisms, when we,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you know, for our ancestors, if you didn't belong to a group, that meant you were going to die. You could not survive. So we had
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to depend on the approval of a group in order for our own survival.
So
now as we've evolved as humans, we now look at, I need my mom's approval, I need this date's approval, I need my boss's approval in order
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to survive. And the the difference now is we're not gonna be voted off the island, we're not gonna be eaten by, you know, a tiger or anything, but we still have that primitive messaging that says, I'm in danger if they don't approve of me.
I'm in danger if they don't like what I have to say, if they don't like my perspective or my stance. So take that of just how we're wired as humans, then add on all of the coach cultural narrative that we have for women or femme presenting individuals, where we are told quite literally that we're not worth as much as men. We don't deserve
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to be paid as much. overwhelmingly.
Domestic violence is perpetrated on women. And there's a reason for that, right? So we have a social hierarchy where women have learned to be really quiet, to take, take that, that, that quiet path so that we're not actually hurt. So we have to remember that. Then add on any personal lived experiences, what it was like being married to a partner for 20 years who operated a specific way. If they constantly
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Talked you down or gaslit you and said, Well, you're just being so dramatic, or that shouldn't be a big deal to you, or you are so sensitive. Now we have lived experience that is telling us I'm wrong. So I say all of that to recognize that there's
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:a lot of forces here at play of why
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:this is so difficult. And you're still
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah, absolutely.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:worthy of speaking up. And it's one of
the most powerful ways to claim your worth, just period.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. Yeah. This
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:is is to start learning that
flexing that muscle.
Andrea Knoche (:Do you find that most people overexplain or they start apologizing while they're doing that? Or is that something you have to again learn as it goes? You'll start to stop apologizing or you know, overexplaining everything. I feel like when I say something, you know, to somebody, like I have to give a reason why and always explain, well, but this is you know, I'm I'm saying this to you. Or, you know, you're like, but just no, I mean, I would do it another time. You know, you're always having to give that, but
But, but because you're feeling that anxiety of saying no. Right. You I'm sure you find
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:It depends
Andrea Knoche (:that a lot.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:it depends a hundred percent on the context. So if we're talking about this, this the first guy that you dated, the bagadics guy, which is so funny to even just that's his moniker. That's his name now. B.O.D. BOD. so if we're talking about him, the stakes aren't high. You had not
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's his name. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:been in, you had not gone on a date at all. You hadn't met
him.
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:You're you owe him nothing. In that situation, you don't have to overexplain. You can say the example that I said earlier, like this is why I'm saying no, because you're already
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:starting us off on a falsehood. Or you can say, you know what, I don't think this is gonna work out. I'm actually going to rescind my interest in going on a date. So it's a no for me. You can just say no. Now, if it
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. Yeah. You just say no.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:is
Somebody who I'm super close with, like let's say it's my very best friend and she has invited me out to some event that I would normally go to, I want her to know the context. I want to explain
Andrea Knoche (:Mm. Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to her why I'm not going to be available because I'm really invested in that relationship. And it's because that context of her understanding where I'm coming from advances the relationship. If it is
Context that you feel like you have to keep over explaining so that they're okay with your no, or so that they think it's acceptable, or that it will land softer, then we're probably shape shifting and people pleasing out of outsourcing our self-worth. So it
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:really depends on context.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. And that's interesting when you said about BOD that he you're like, you don't even know him. You owe him nothing, right? And
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:No thing.
Andrea Knoche (:that when you just said that, that like pinged to me slightly because I'm like, God, you're so right. Like, why am I so worried about somebody I don't even know? I've never met in person. He's the one who's catfishing me, pretty much, you know, yet still
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:That's right.
Andrea Knoche (:I felt the need to be kind and and not put myself in a position that
he would think any differently of me. But that once again is my issue, right? Like that goes back to me. That didn't have anything to do with him. That was my insecurities and my fear of saying that. Right.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:And so it's a different nuance every single time. So you have to excavate behind
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:each of those no's. Now, if you had, let's say, let's say, okay, so the the first situation was he had to cancel and you said, no problem, we can reschedule. In that
Andrea Knoche (:Yes,
right there. I was out. I was out, Amy!
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:That that's a perfect example of right then you had the I call it declaring the do-over. So you
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:had the moment when you realized that he was not who he said he was, and you had
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:the opportunity to say, Hey, I don't think this is gonna work. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna call it right now. You
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:chose not to. That part right there, then we start to we need to start observing ourselves and going,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:that's curious. And now I'm going to declare the do-over. Now what does that make what does that look like? How can I walk back this yes? So you could very
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:easily have said to him, Hey, you know what? I'm really having some second thoughts and I'm just gonna call it right now. And I truly wish you well. And that's it.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you could have also said, okay, when
Andrea Knoche (:Should have
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:he contacts me next and wants to reschedule, that's when I'm gonna say no.
Right. So we have to understand
Andrea Knoche (:Hm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:what's actually happening for us, why we feel
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:compelled to do that, really observing, do I owe this person something? If it was your sister, your best friend, somebody you've been in business with, it might be that it it's worthy of a little more explanation. But this is
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:not one.
Andrea Knoche (:Not one. Gosh, but we wouldn't have got this good bagadick story, let me tell ya. If we
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Ha ha that's true.
Andrea Knoche (:didn't know that. So there's something good there.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:And I think people find themselves in that
same issue, Andrea. Like it's not just
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you, you know?
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah, I hope it's not just me, but I also hope that I have learned and I I do know I have learned over the years to to not allow that over and over again because I always leave feeling defeated and deflated, like, God, why did I do that? Why did I say that? And so a personal story. So we recently, you were on on Menopause Love Lounge, and then right after that, we had a retreat for the Menopause Love Lounge ladies.
And it was very interesting because we have, I mean, six different personalities on that show, which is very difficult to keep
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Manage.
Andrea Knoche (:it on a on a night. Yeah, it's really, it's really tricky. And so we've had conflict over the last year, you know, which is which is, you know, we knew that was gonna happen, but we
Scheduled this retreat for us all to go to. And I know we all kind of came there with a little hesitation, apprehension, like, what is this going to be like? Well, we opened it up during the retreat. We made it a lot about having, you know, circle time and really talking to each other and and, you know, putting out, like, if you knew me, you would know kind of things, you know, and really trying to understand each other. And one of them that was very difficult for me.
There is one other girl on the podcast, and she's she's brilliant. She's wonderful. She brings tons of value to the podcast. And I find myself always looking to her for approval for some reason.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Mm.
Andrea Knoche (:Whenever, because I'm the lead host, and whenever I'm talking or I say something, I find myself all of a sudden looking over at her, like, did did that sound like good? Did she think that was good? Like what I said.
And it was really interesting to me that I've been noticing this lately, because I have felt like I have come such a long way in a very healthy place, which I am, but you can still have little things that creep up right and
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:First.
Andrea Knoche (:happen. Yeah. And so I was like, hmm. And I actually took the opportunity during that circle to confront that demon. And I
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Good.
Andrea Knoche (:did let her know. Yeah. And I did let her know. And I and I just, you know, kind of said, Hey, I
Need you to understand that this is what's happening for me when we have these conversations. And I'm finding myself looking to you for approval. And I'm not even sure why. I don't know if it's because I feel like she's in this hierarchy and she's so much, you know, just she has a brilliant mind. And I love that about her, but that makes me feel a little bit more, you know, like I'm less than imposter syndrome, you know, all of those things. And actually being able to confront her about that situation was so freeing for me.
And it just from that moment just kind of released something and grew our relationship where I not where I feel like, I can now give her the what's up on everything I feel, you know, but it just allowed me to go, wow, she now understands where I'm coming from. And maybe there's a little bit more grace there as well for me to understand that I have a little bit of an insecurity.
you know, with something there. And it was just such a nice feeling, I will say. It feels so good. That's all I'm trying to say. When you
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Great one.
Andrea Knoche (:actually speak up for yourself and you're a you know, you just free that. It's great.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:There's
a couple of things in that anecdote that I think warrants underlining. One is you were sharing very vulnerably. And
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:not everybody that we engage with is it safe to be vulnerable. You
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:were able to be met with understanding, support. She leaned in. Now you can really move forward. Not everybody does that. So, especially
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:when you are in
Intimate partnerships, you have to make sure that if you are engaging with vulnerability like that, that it is not being weaponized. So
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:an example of weaponization would be if she would have responded with, Well, that's a you issue, and I'm sorry you feel that way. And well, you need to really work on it. And did not
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:look at, even if it is a you issue, a collaborative meeting of that would be.
Andrea, I really appreciate you sharing that with me. And I I am sorry, that's how it has transpired. How can I support you the best? Is there anything
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you might need from me that you're not getting? Or is there any way I'm making your life harder? That's what we're looking for when we're sharing vulnerably. there's a great
Andrea Knoche (:Yes,
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:quote from Brene Brown, who I always love to call Our Lady Brene of House Brown. And she
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm. Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:talks about how shame thrives in the darkness.
And the th the that feeling of shame is accompanied by the voice of, I'm not enough, I'm an imposter, I'm not valuable. And if we don't give voice to it, it will continue to eat us alive. You probably would continue to gather more evidence of why she is better than you or why you're not enough if you had not addressed it. Now, fortunately, that particular relationship was safe for you to.
address directly. In some situations, you might need to unpack that with a therapist, with a coach, with a trusted confidant who would allow you to have a safe place to land. So I just wanted to kind of point out a couple of elements there that I think are important.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
No, those are very important because it I was in a safe space in a safe container, right? Where I was with the women that I had brought together to do this this podcast and we were all sharing our vulnerabilities. And so we were all in the moment together. So it felt very safe to be able to speak that to her. Would I have done it outside of there? I don't know. I mean, well, you know, I can say we've been work working together for a year and I haven't said it till now, you know, so maybe
Maybe I wouldn't have said something, or I'd really have to build up my nerves to be able to do that. But I did feel safe in that moment. So you're right. That's why it was easier for me to do that. And it was received very well. So it
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yes. Brilliant.
Andrea Knoche (:made it nice for me to talk about it. So
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yeah.
Andrea Knoche (:you have like a three step boundary recipe that I know you've talked about. And this helps women to have more productive conversations. Can you kind of share that with us and tell the listeners like, what does that look like?
Like what are the three steps?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Sure. So the first one is to so essentially what we're doing is we're prepping on actual delivery when we're going in to have a difficult conversation. So the first step
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:is to identify here's the issue or here's the topic, here's what happened, so that we're really clear what we're conversing about. The second thing is to say, here's how my experience has been, here's my interpretation.
Here's how that landed. And in corporate situations, which is a lot of what I work with, it's saying, here's
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:the impact on me. Here's what you might not be seeing because I'm juggling all of these things behind the scenes. And then finally, it's here's my request. So here's what I would like to be different, right? So if we were taking.
That framework into the conversation about not wanting to go to Indian food, let's say, you
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:you would say, okay, so about where we're going to dinner tonight. That's the topic. Here's the topic. Here's what happened. here's my interpretation. I'll be I'll be really candid with you. I don't do well with Indian food. And I I think I could maybe find a thing or two.
Then here's my request. Would you be open to this really incredible Italian food? How do you feel about Italian? Are you open to
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:another place? Right. So we're
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:saying, here's what happened, or here's the issue, here's my interpretation, and then here's my request. And
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:it's it's really quite simple. it's harder to get the nerve
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to actually do it, but once you start operating in that way.
It becomes the new normal.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I like that. That's good because it's it well, the way you presented it sounded very easy and you know to do that. But you're right, the hard part is actually saying it the first time, but it does get easier afterwards. And it and because it puts you in a space where you're now like, wow, I took back the ownership there, like that feels so nice to have chosen me instead of just, you know, accommodating everybody. So that's amazing.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yes.
Andrea Knoche (:Thanks for sharing that. That was really good. So I also want to talk about boundaries.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yes.
Andrea Knoche (:very similar, right? Which is what we're doing. We're setting boundaries, right? But if we were being very particular about our boundaries, what kind of happens when like I set a boundary and someone who was benefiting from something before I set this boundary? So they're becoming very resistant to me setting a boundary. How do I hold that boundary without like
just immediately giving it up and going, no, you're right. Let's go back to doing that. How do I do that?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yes.
Yeah, it's where you kind of have a confidence hangover and you take everything back that you already said.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:So one thing is that is more preliminary. When you go into having a boundary conversation and you are saying something very deliberate like, here's my request. My request is that this X, Y, or Z does not happen any longer, or that you don't say these things to me any longer.
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:As you're preparing to deliver that, remember that it is highly likely that somebody will breach that boundary. And sometimes
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:it's not out of malice, sometimes it is,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:but sometimes it's just that they're used to a decade, two, three, four decades of you operating a completely different way. And they just forget.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:the other thing that can happen is it's inconvenient for them. They're about your boundary.
Andrea Knoche (:Totally.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Is something that they actually preferred the people pleasing version of you. And
Andrea Knoche (:I'm sure.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:that goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of that gives you a lot more intel about if this is a person who should be in your life or not. I don't know about you, I would assume we're the same way. I want to only be tethered to people who do not make
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:me wrong when I'm standing up for myself, as long as it's with
Andrea Knoche (:love it.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:grace and kindness, right?
So
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:if somebody goes, well, that's ridiculous, or you're being overly sensitive, or I think you're overreacting, that tells me that what I'm experiencing emotionally doesn't matter to them. So I might say, I, you know what, I really don't appreciate my emotional experience being disregarded. Or that
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:response from you tells me a lot about how serious you're taking my experience. Right. So we can say,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:we can go anytime.
Too sensitive, overreacting, all of that is usually a proxy for your emotions are inconvenient for me, I or I'm embarrassed of my own behavior. So I'm just gonna write this off. But that tells me so much about do I want that person in my life or not. But
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah, yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:if we're talking about the former, where people just aren't in the habit of refraining from something around you, or let's say, for example, you've stopped drinking and you ask,
somebody or a partner, somebody you're dating to no longer offer. Like, please don't offer,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:like, hey, can I make you a drink? Don't, or can I go get you a drink? Please just don't offer. That is likely sometimes it's malicious where they want to collude or they want to make fun of you for making healthy choices. but sometimes
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:it's just they're used to you, you always got drinks together. So they
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:might flip up and you might say, hey
Remember, I remember that conversation we had. I I know it might feel super different and kind of clunky, but I'd really appreciate it if you didn't offer alcohol. You have to be ready to enforce. You have to be ready to
say it over and over and over again. Now, if that person keeps pushing and keep and you you think that it's from a place of, come on, loosen up. I have a myriad of retorts, like.
Are you seriously trying to pressure me into putting poison in my system? Or are you really giving me
Andrea Knoche (:I love that. I love that.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:shit for making healthy decisions for myself? Yeah.
Andrea Knoche (:Decision? Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Or you know what? You continuing to push really shows me that you don't give a shit about the choices I'm making about myself. Is that really
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:how you want to portray yourself?
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:and they then again, how they respond will give you more intel. But
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:from the beginning of the of
Delivering the boundary, be prepared for the enforcing. Because a lot of times we think, I've gotten myself all worked up. I did the hard part. Now I'm done. Nope. It's highly likely the boundary will be breached. So practice how am I going to say something to them like, hey, you know that convo we had? I really meant it. Or, you know, when we were talking about how I'm not drinking, please don't offer it. I really meant that. And I
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I'd really appreciate it if you could adhere to that. It would mean the world to me. So
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:And then you can keep your own personal tally of how many times am I willing to do this before I blatantly say, like, it's clear that you aren't interested in supporting me through this. I think we probably should stop getting together.
Andrea Knoche (:Yep. Gosh, those are good examples. Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:And have a have an actual consequence.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. And the way I'm hearing it from you, it's so much bigger than just a you know, the people pleasing, just saying yes when you shouldn't say no. I mean, it's it's about figuring out who you're dealing with and what they mean to you or what you mean to them. Right. And so I love that you're kind of framing it that way because it it makes you really have to look beyond just just right in front of you and what you're willing to say.
But then where do you go from there when they are not respecting your boundaries and not listening to you? And that is probably going to create another, another boundary, another right that you're going to have to set or decide if when you if you do or do not want that person in your life. You know, there is additional consequences that come from saying it. But I think just at the end of the day, knowing that you stood up for yourself and said what you needed and discovering whether they are really there for you or not, that's
That's the gold right there. That's a tough one. Hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Absolutely. And the thing that you
can control that is incredibly
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:imperative in these these situations is your delivery. So using
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:that if you would have said, why do you keep fucking offering me drinks? Like and and you kind of
Andrea Knoche (:Yes, I
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:unleash, if you are being more acerbic, it's likely that that person is gonna go defense mode right away. So you have to be sure.
That your delivery is spot on, saying something like,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:like I gave the example a second ago. Hey, listen, you know that convo we had about me not drinking anymore. I really meant it. It would mean the world. It you really have to be that soft because a lot of times
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:when we feel wronged by someone, we will excuse our own
Andrea Knoche (:Get our backup.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:core delivery. And we'll be like, Well, they deserved it, you know? And no.
Andrea Knoche (:Yes. Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:You're actually
setting them up to be defensive and retaliatory. So you have
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to control your delivery.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. that's great. That's great. So for the listeners out there, anyone who is realizing, this is me. I do that all the time and feels like they're repeatedly abandoning themselves. What would you how would you guide them to rebuild the trust in themselves and to know that that's okay? Like where would they start from day one? If today they're listening to this episode and they go, That's it, I'm done, no more people pleasing.
Do they just start with the next situation that comes up like that or do they practice? Sounds like they might be practiced.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Well, I think it starts
first by making a commitment of I am going to start advocating for myself. And I am going to find one low stake situation where I can start doing
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:this. So an example might be the next time you are with everybody at work and they say, Hey, where
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:where should we go to lunch? Have an opinion. You might say, Hey,
Just throwing that out there for those of us who are gluten-free, it'd be great if we could find some gluten-free options, right? Find one low
Andrea Knoche (:Mm, yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:stake situation where you can actually be vocal.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. And almost in a place where you feel safe to be that way. Is that kind of what you're saying? You do it in a an environment where you feel like you can do that because that's gonna build your confidence, right? To be able to do it elsewhere.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:That's right. And
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:there's not a horrendous worst case scenario, right? We're not
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:dealing with somebody who is going to receive that really poorly, but it gives you the opportunity to start flexing that muscle. What I would also
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:say as another starting point is to really check yourself on what you complain about. Taking a complaint inventory.
Almost always illuminates a place where you need to be vocal and start speaking up. Because a lot of times if we're really pissed at our partner or the person we're dating, our best friend gets nearful. If we're mad at mom, it's our sibling who knows every s every detail about it. So we're speaking up, but not to the party who
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:could do a damn thing about it. So we need to figure out where are we selling ourselves short. And almost always we can find it in our complaints that we are.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:offloading to the wrong party. Then we can start thinking about how could I run this through that recipe? How can I ask for the time to talk with this person and gearing yourself up of how you might want to approach that boundary, which I have a bevy of different resources that that folks can use.
Andrea Knoche (:Hmm.
I love it. I love it. Well, speaking of that, why don't you tell everybody where we can find you? And then I want to play a little game with you to kind of get a feel of whether something is more of a healthy compromise or if it's people pleasing. Just so we're in the right frame of mind. But where can they find you, Amy?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Sure.
So my little corner of the internet is over at amygreensmith.com. And all those names are spelled the basic bitch way. Nothing exciting, exactly how you would think they are. And
Andrea Knoche (:Love it. Smart.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:right there on the front page, you can get your hands on a private podcast. It's a six episode series that walks you through all sorts of these implementable tools and frameworks. It's called Boundaries Over Burnout. And
It is teaching you how to be vocal so that you not aren't always running on empty and depleted all the time because you're taking care of everybody else.
Andrea Knoche (:Perfect. Yes. perfect. I'm going to go take that too. I think that sounds amazing. Okay, so I want to play a little game with you. All right. It's
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Perfect.
Andrea Knoche (:called compromise or people pleasing. So I'm to give you two choices and then you tell me whether you think that is a healthy compromise or if it is actually people pleasing. And then we'll go from there. All right. So you here, kind of just like what we said, you go to a restaurant you don't love because it's your partner's favorite.
This one we kinda just all talked about. Do you think that is a healthy compromise to do that? Or is that just people pleasing?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I lean towards people pleasing, but again, it depends. If it's their birthday, then we go wherever the fuck they want to go, right? So it
Andrea Knoche (:There you go. Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:there there is a lot of nuance there that I think is important. But if
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:if that partner has no idea that you don't like this food, then it's people pleasing.
Andrea Knoche (:Yep.
Okay, good. All right, number two, you cancel plans with friends whenever the person you're dating becomes available. Is that a compromise or is that people pleasing?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:This again has a lot of nuance. If you are long distance and your partner has a last minute trip where he's acting or he or she is in your vicinity, that might be an opportunity that you need to take advantage of. It also depends on how long have you had these plans with your friends? How do they treat you? my instinct
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:is that it's people pleasing on its face. If you are just jumping every time that person's available.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:If canceling plans with those friends of yours has you out of integrity, then we have
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:a problem. Then it's people pleasing. So again, depends on context.
Andrea Knoche (:Okay.
Yeah. And also it's kind of letting the person know that they can get you anytime they want. You know, the person that you are saying yes to and that you don't have any boundaries where you're like, hey, I already have plans tonight. So does that too? All right, number
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Yeah. Yep.
Andrea Knoche (:three, you agree to keep things casual even though you genuinely want a committed relationship. Are you compromising for how long?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Gosh,
these are tricky, Andrea. because there's so much there's so much variables.
Andrea Knoche (:I know there's so many they're so basic and big. I know. yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:it depends on if you want a a more committed relationship with that person.
Andrea Knoche (:Hm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:if that's the case, then I say you gotta get out. Because if it is with that person and they don't want to commit, but you do, that's a recipe
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:for you being taken advantage of. And
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Even
if they are fully forthright and open about it and you're like, okay, I'll just take what I can get. First of
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:all, you're cluttering up your frequency. So you're not giving yourself emotional bandwidth to attract somebody who is ready to meet you where you are. And you're also
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:saying like, I'll take your scraps. I don't, I don't, what I want doesn't really matter. That's a point when I really think you need to say, cool, you are allowed to want whatever you want.
I get that you want something casual. I'm not in that place anymore. So in order to really have integrity, I think we should probably call it call it right now.
Andrea Knoche (:Mm, that's great. I think a lot of people are in that position. I see scenarios all the time where people are feeling so frustrated because they're at two different places, but that's also not having the right communication too, right? And and sometimes hanging on way longer than you should, because when they're telling you they're not ready for a relationship, but you keep pushing and staying, it's kind of like believe when they say it, you're not gonna get what you want out of that. That's a tough
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Well, and
Andrea Knoche (:one.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I know you've talked about it's not fair to be dating people for their potential, like who I can mold you
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:into or who I can make you into. It's one thing if they are saying, I don't know, we'll see where it goes. And they're being really ambiguous. It's a totally different
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:thing if they're saying, I don't want this. You need to take them as that is their truth, as somebody who
Andrea Knoche (:As yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Don't want kids, has never wanted kids. There's nothing more infuriating to me when people would say you'll change your mind. And I'm like, fucking come at me when I'm 80 and I have no kids. Right. And I'm like, like,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:it's infuriating when someone thinks I'm going to change them. I'm going to get them
Andrea Knoche (:Yes.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:to tr change their mind. If they are being really forthright with you, take that as their truth.
Andrea Knoche (:Yes. What is that though? Why does somebody feel the need to do that to pressure you and be like, but you're gonna love you're gonna want one later. You'll see, you'll see. Does that have something to do with them as well? Or is it just they're just being annoying?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Well,
I think it can be a a ton of different reasons. One of them is they really want that for you. So in my case with kids,
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:it could be my mom really, really wanting to be a grandmother. It could be a best friend being like, it would be so fun for us to raise kids together. I'm too fucking old for that. You know what I mean? Like there could be a ton of different reasons. But what I will say
Andrea Knoche (:yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:is other people who have been really at peace and
felt powerful in their own decision around children, always have supported myself and my partner. They've been like, good for you. It's the people who
Andrea Knoche (:Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:aren't totally anchored in who they are that want to try to convert.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Yep, I agree. Okay, one more, you avoid bringing up something that hurt you because everything has been going so well. Are you I guess
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Okay, so
Andrea Knoche (:it's are you compromise with yourself or people pleasing yourself?
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:It's
definitely people pleasing. However,
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I will say there's something to be said for the timing being right.
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:so if if you are having it all although sometimes when things are going really awesome, that's the best time to approach something and to say,
To use how great it's been going as a springboard and just say, I love so much how we're communicating and how things have been going. And I appreciate that you're always so interested. And I've realized that there's there's something that's been kind of bothering me, and you would have no idea about that. And that is wildly unfair to you. And if the situation was reversed, I would want you to tell me. So
I would love to share that with you if you're open and offer an invite. And if they're okay, then you say, hey, this one thing that was said, it land again, you're saying, here's what happened, here's my interpretation, here's how it landed for me. Here's how what
Andrea Knoche (:Mm.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:I made up in my head. And then here's what I request going forward. If that situation were to come up again, please say this instead of this. What do you think? And what was your experience like? So that because
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:a lot of times if you're both in a really great place, that can be the
the best time to dig into stuff that that's difficult.
Andrea Knoche (:Yeah. Well, because it's
received so differently. If you're both in a negative place or you're in a down place, everything comes across the wrong way in a negative sense, right? And so it's probably received very differently than it is if you guys are both on a good high from how well things are going. You're up you're open to everything. You're like, bring
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Andrea Knoche (:it, bring it. Okay, good. Thank you for playing that. That was so good. And thank you so much for coming on and joining me once again.
And for giving us some like real practical ways that we can stop people pleasing and to set stronger boundaries. It's not always easy, but you've given us so many wonderful tools to be able to do that. So that's amazing. I love that. I'm gonna have all your information in the show notes so they can go and find the six episode podcast that you said. That's gonna be so, so good. And to everyone listening out there, if you love this conversation, make sure you follow from Mrs. to Ms. Share this episode.
with a friend who needs to hear it and leave a review. And like I mentioned, you can also find Amy on my other podcast, Menopause Love Lounge, where we are talking kind of more in midlife and and you know what we're going through in menopause and how we can set our boundaries in that way. So Amy, thank you again for being
Is there anything that you wanted to leave a little tidbit for the listeners? Like that they can go.
Yes, that's what I need. Get a little
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Ooh.
Andrea Knoche (:nugget for me. You're so
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:phrase
that I say all the time is do not allow your silence to make you a liar. If
Andrea Knoche (:Oof.
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:do not allow your silence to make you a liar.
Andrea Knoche (:To make it
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:If if not speaking up, if not advocating for yourself gives a completely wrong idea to the other person, that's on you. So just using that as a benchmark of
Have I been forthright enough for this other person to be clear about where I stand? And that'll lead you in the right direction.
Andrea Knoche (:Mmm, perfect. I knew you'd have a nugget for me and you did not disappoint. So thank you. That
Amy Green Smith [she/her] (:Ha ha ha.
Andrea Knoche (:one is so good. So good. All right, that's it for this week. We'll see you guys next week. Have a good one. Bye-bye.
